Gorbachev: Lukashenka could be a member of Political Bureau

Euroradio: How do you think, which of the former Soviet republics has moved away from the Soviet Union most? And where?

Mikhail Gorbachev: It is a simple question but it is difficult to answer it. Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan keep looking for ways of integration here, in the East, on the post-Soviet territory, to create the Single Economic Space. Ukraine has mixed it up a lot. My mother is Ukrainian and I am half Ukrainian so I care about Ukraine but I do not like what is going on there. They are fearful and think that Russia is the only threat. All the others are good - the EU and America. Can it be a result of our Soviet past? However, Ukraine cannot complain about the past – it had representatives in the Soviet administration and it had investments…

Euroradio: Has Georgia moved away most of all?...

Mikhail Gorbachev: You know, I would not like to analyze Georgia. Georgians and Russians, like Belarusians and Russians, are almost the same. I love Georgians and think of them as relatives. According to surveys, Russians think that Belarusians are the closest. It is absolutely true. Ukrainians are in the second position.

Euroradio: Can you say that Belarus resembles the Soviet Union most? Don’t you think that the country has created its own USSR?

Mikhail Gorbachev: I do. The country preserved the approaches and industry of the Soviet Union even after its collapse. I think that it was the reason for the country’s survival. There was no such a default as in Russia. However, Belarus needs cooperation more than the other states. It is good that it is understood.

Euroradio: Look at the presidents – Lukashenka and Nazarbayev… they resemble C.P.S.U. secretaries – both of them have been in power for a long time. Isn’t it Soviet influence?

Mikhail Gorbachev: They are mature. I put Nazarbayev in the first position in this sense. He has experienced many ordeals. When I was the USSR President, I had to protect him because Kunayev suggested sending him abroad as an economic representative. Our friend Nursultan is not a simple person…

Euroradio: Lukashenka is not simple either…

Mikhail Gorbachev: Lukashenka’s “simplicity” is different. He is open and Nazarbayev has the eastern slyness.
Euroradio: Isn’t it bad for a country if somebody rules the state as long as secretaries-general did?
Mikhail Gorbachev: I do not think so. I cannot find a way to compare presidents with secretaries-general.  I wanted to appoint Nursultan PM after the realization of the new union agreement. He agreed. I respect Alyaksandr for his clarity… I remember him since the commissions. There were commissions of anxious economic executives during the perestroika.

Euroradio: What was Lukashenka’s status back then?

Mikhail Gorbachev: He was a progressive state farm director.

Euroradio: He says that he took part in the elaboration of the so-called “500 days” programme…

Mikhail Gorbachev: It is true. He should not be proud of it... (Laughs.) His behaviour in the last and most dramatic stage of the USSR is the most important thing to me! That is why I can forgive him everything. Sometimes I see (and I have said it openly) him behave like “a bull in a china shop”.

Euroradio: It is not good...

Mikhail Gorbachev: If a bull touches you – it will be bad... It is another person now. However, he was an adherent of the USSR until the end! He is still devoted to the Union’s ideas.

Euroradio: You said that you wanted to appoint Nazarbayev PM back in the Soviet time. What position would have been good for Lukashenka?

Mikhail Gorbachev: A member of the Political Bureau.

Euroradio: Every President of a former Soviet republic could become a member of the Political Bureau...

Mikhail Gorbachev: They couldn’t. Slaves and Kazaks are good.

Euroradio: They say that all colour revolutions replaced the Soviet nomenklatura that did not want to leave... And that Lukashenka came to power after such “a revolution” when he replaced Kebich...

Mikhail Gorbachev: You should not connect the aims of Belarusian changes and reforms with Kebich and think that is was the essence of “the Belarusian revolution”. (Laughs.) In fact, “the perestroika” was a revolutionary change. If only we had managed to finish it... But everything stopped suddenly.

Euroradio: Does the post-Soviet generation differ from the Soviet generations?

Mikhail Gorbachev: It does! There are two generations between them. The first one witnesses the robbery of the state property. The market economy became so wild that it affected their behaviour and morality a lot. I like the second generation more. They are not that cynical and they demand moral obligations from themselves and the society.

Euroradio: Do they resemble Soviet people more?

Mikhail Gorbachev: They resemble themselves. Soviet people have remained Soviet. They are disappearing gradually. The Soviet trait is not easily removed. Did you see how we bade farewell to Stalinism? There are columns with Stalin’s portraits. It is difficult! All surveys testify that 80% of people are nostalgic about the Soviet time. But only 155 would like to return it and to live in the USSR...

Euroradio: How do you think, what do the numbers mean?

Mikhail Gorbachev: People have tried out democracy and the freedom of speech and they do not want to refuse from them. There were a lot of good things in the Soviet Union, for example, the social policy. However, some of the things were created with the help of... Magadan.

Euroradio: But Belarus keeps looking back on that time and it seems that it would like to return to the USSR...

Mikhail Gorbachev: It is impossible. Ukraine could realise the great potential that was created there in the Soviet time. But Ukrainians do not want to be with Russians.

Euroradio: Can an ex-Soviet republic like Belarus chose its own way and head for the west or the east?

Mikhail Gorbachev: Belarus’ way is preserving its sovereignty and establishing relations with Russia.